132 replies to this topic

[katinka]

zaccariah2005, on Dec 30 2006, 08:29 PM, said:

About me being a devil's advocate: Sometimes, a devil's advocate is needed so, that, the situation can be seen from another perspective.

Thanks for playing devils advocate. Although it would be interesting to read what you actually think, its also interesting to read what you think the palestinians view is. After all, thats why i started this topic.


And yakov, your post about war and genocide confused me a bit... there's a difference between war and genocide... losing a war does not mean dying off (ie. revolutionary war-- britain still exists today, from what i can tell). a genocide is not exactly a war... it's a systematic extermination of an entire national, racial, political or cultural group, usually gov't sponsored. what is it that you were trying to say?


As far as putting jews in a different place, like eastern europe, germany, or africa-- there's like no way to do that now. can we not debate that? i realize its interesting and all, but i'm more interested in seeing what you think of whats actually going on now. and how to deal with that.

Also, Yakov, i realize that you were raised in the same uber zionist place i was, but you really can't say that palestinians are doing this for the wrong reasons... they feel robbed of their land. I realize that you feel very strongly about your jewish faith, and its evident in your posts that you feel jews deserve israel because it is their holy city and they originate from there. i've heard that argument countless times (including just now from my mother), but israel is also a holy city for the christians and the muslims. And jews haven't really occupied that land for over a thousand years. Thats like... if i take my lock off my locker in tech and someone else takes it, and the next week i come back and try to take it back from them.


What i find amusing is that europe wanted to get rid of jews because they didn't really want them or like them... so they just gave them a piece of land where people like them even less.

[esong27]

Katinka, I would like to thank you for your very mature post, and for getting things moving in the right direction.

Thank you, really.

[leo2car]

Quote

And jews haven't really occupied that land for over a thousand years. Thats like... if i take my lock off my locker in tech and someone else takes it, and the next week i come back and try to take it back from them.

Put that in a Historic picture, the jews were forced out of the land. they never wnated to leave.
In this world everyone blames the jews only, lets look at Chistans and Muslims. your example in irelent When i posted blamed only the extremists. the UN gave Isarel the land, i do not see why thee government does not have the right to live and protest that.

Isarel will like with non-extremist Muslim its the extremests that everyone has a problem with.

[z2z007]

leo2car, on Dec 31 2006, 11:04 AM, said:

In this world everyone blames the jews only...

It is not true. That is really a biased statement to make. Both sides get blamed in one way or another.

Just to raise up a point...

Do you guys ever wonder why Hamas was successful to win control of Palestine? Hamas had better candidates (in the sense that they are less corrupt), a strong political machine and made promises to meet the needs of a suffering populace, such as health care.

Israel's situation will not improve if Palestinian political issues are not addressed by non-extremists. They need to regain the faith of the people, which is something that I do not see happening in the near future.

[Yakov]

katinka, on Dec 30 2006, 10:45 PM, said:

Thanks for playing devils advocate. Although it would be interesting to read what you actually think, its also interesting to read what you think the palestinians view is. After all, thats why i started this topic.
And yakov, your post about war and genocide confused me a bit... there's a difference between war and genocide... losing a war does not mean dying off (ie. revolutionary war-- britain still exists today, from what i can tell). a genocide is not exactly a war... it's a systematic extermination of an entire national, racial, political or cultural group, usually gov't sponsored. what is it that you were trying to say?
As far as putting jews in a different place, like eastern europe, germany, or africa-- there's like no way to do that now. can we not debate that? i realize its interesting and all, but i'm more interested in seeing what you think of whats actually going on now. and how to deal with that.

Also, Yakov, i realize that you were raised in the same uber zionist place i was, but you really can't say that palestinians are doing this for the wrong reasons... they feel robbed of their land. I realize that you feel very strongly about your jewish faith, and its evident in your posts that you feel jews deserve israel because it is their holy city and they originate from there. i've heard that argument countless times (including just now from my mother), but israel is also a holy city for the christians and the muslims. And jews haven't really occupied that land for over a thousand years. Thats like... if i take my lock off my locker in tech and someone else takes it, and the next week i come back and try to take it back from them.
What i find amusing is that europe wanted to get rid of jews because they didn't really want them or like them... so they just gave them a piece of land where people like them even less.

Why is it that a Jew is questioning whether or not a Jew should have a homeland? Do British people question if they should have Britain? Do Americans truly ever want to give back their land to the Native Americans? Do the Chinese ever question whether or not China is their homeland? Do the Muslims question their homeplace of Mecca? NO, only Jews question whether or not Israel is their homeland.

About Africa/Europe/Germany I was being sarcastic. Putting them somewhere else is out of the question. Also, I dislike your analogy. Here's how its more like;

You live in your apartment, you go on vacation for a week, when you come back someone has settled in your apartment, do you have a right to take it back? YES, YES you do.

Also, Jews [historically] usually got blamed for everything. In nearly every society, Jews are bad.
-Muslims blame the Jews
-Hitler blamed the Jews
-French people [used to] blame the Jews
-The Polish [used to] blame the Jews

Overall, Jews were considered to be (This is what I believe) rich, and wealthy, and people didn't like that.
Sure you may think this is stereotype, etc. but people believed the stereotype, and the stereotype is still used today, even in America. An example would be, in "Family Guy" there is an Episode where Peter needs money, and he asks a Jew for it. He sings "Im so Broke, Im so broke, I need a Jewwwww". Obviously, this proves that the stereotype STILL exists.

Genocide- I was referring to when someone said that the Palestinians believed that losing the war, meant dieing off. Genocide is dieing off, losing a war is NOT dieing off. I could care less about what the Palestinians want, maybe when they mature, stop throwing bombs on us, stop blaming US + UK + Israel for all their problems, stop believing that Allah wants them all to "die in the name of Allah". Maybe, just maybe then I'll listen to what they have to say. Currently, it's like talking to a wall. They won't listen.

[zaccariah2005]

katinka, on Dec 30 2006, 10:45 PM, said:

Thanks for playing devils advocate. Although it would be interesting to read what you actually think, its also interesting to read what you think the palestinians view is. After all, thats why i started this topic.

I thought I was clear in mentioning what I actually thought:

zaccariah2005, on Dec 30 2006, 08:29 PM, said:

And I guess my overall view of the war is that there is two sides to it. Both sides think that they are right. In a conflict, no side is correct. It is the propoganda that is causing the conflict. Both sides have different values, different views on morality, different motives and different types of propoganda. Do you know any Israeli who has tried to learn about the Palestinian culture from an un-bias [Palestinian] point of view? Do you know any Palestinian who has tried to learn about the Israeli culture from an un-bias [Israeli] point of view? It seldom happens as far as I know. Like esong said, who are you to call their reasons wrong?

[zaccariah2005]

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 12:40 PM, said:

Do Americans truly ever want to give back their land to the Native Americans?

Do Palestinians truly ever want to give back their land to the Israelis?

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 12:40 PM, said:

You live in your apartment, you go on vacation for a week, when you come back someone has settled in your apartment, do you have a right to take it back? YES, YES you do.

He settled there when you weren't there. So, he will think that he has the right to fight back.

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 12:40 PM, said:

I could care less about what the Palestinians want

Currently, it's like talking to a wall. You won't listen. I am puning the following quote:

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 12:40 PM, said:

Currently, it's like talking to a wall. They won't listen.

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 12:40 PM, said:

maybe when they mature, stop throwing bombs on us, stop blaming US + UK + Israel for all their problems, stop believing that Allah wants them all to "die in the name of Allah".

one word: PROPOGANDA!

[zaccariah2005]

katinka, on Dec 30 2006, 10:45 PM, said:

As far as putting jews in a different place, like eastern europe, germany, or africa-- there's like no way to do that now. can we not debate that? i realize its interesting and all, but i'm more interested in seeing what you think of whats actually going on now. and how to deal with that.

I told everybody not to respond to my comment, but, w/e. And I think I already said that there won't be an agreement that will ever satisfy both sides.

[z2z007]

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 12:40 PM, said:

Do the Muslims question their homeplace of Mecca?

Not to be nitpicky but that's not our homeplace, not for all of us at least. Mecca is the place every Muslim (if capable) has to go for Hajj (pilgrimage). Not every Muslim is from the Middle East. I guess cultural and religious identities are vastly different for Muslims whereas it can be the same or very close to it for Jews.


Anyway, I'm telling everyone now to keep their cool. I don't need a flamewar erupting. Try to tone down the emotions in the discussion.

zaccariah, try not to overquote and avoid multiple posts.

[Yakov]

zaccariah2005, on Dec 31 2006, 01:03 PM, said:

Do Palestinians truly ever want to give back their land to the Israelis?

They already did, whether they like it or not. Funny how you singled out that specific one .

Quote

He settled there when you weren't there. So, he will think that he has the right to fight back.

He can think what he wants, bottom line is that it isn't his.

Quote

Currently, it's like talking to a wall. You won't listen. I am puning the following quote:

Actually, I've agreed with you on some points .

Quote

one word: PROPOGANDA!

No bombs are thrown? I have seen LIVE videos of bombs falling down. My relatives LIVE in Israel, and they tell me that bombs are being thrown. Some of my relatives now live in bomb shelters because they're House/Apartment has been blown up. This isn't propoganda, this is ACTUALLY happening. Is this news to you?

Quote

not to be nitpicky but that's not our homeplace, not for all of us at least. Mecca is the place every Muslim (if capable) has to go for Hajj (pilgrimage). Not every Muslim is from the Middle East. I guess cultural and religious identities are vastly different for Muslims whereas it can be the same or very close to it for Jews.


Anyway, I'm telling everyone now to keep their cool. I don't need a flamewar erupting. Try to tone down the emotions in the discussion.

zaccariah, try not to overquote and avoid multiple posts.

Every Muslim (if capable) has to go for Hajj (pilgrimage), so it doesn't matter if you're from the middle east or not, they still should (if capable) go there.

[zaccariah2005]

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 02:28 PM, said:

They already did, whether they like it or not. Funny how you singled out that specific one .

They didn't, the UN did. Funny, how you mentioned that specific one.

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 02:28 PM, said:

He can think what he wants, bottom line is that it isn't his.

What he thinks, makes a difference in opinion; thus, making a conflict.

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 02:28 PM, said:

Actually, I've agreed with you on some points .

But, you ignored my overall thesis (i.e. there is two sides to the conflict and both sides think they are right. Neither side is more correct than the other).

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 02:28 PM, said:

No bombs are thrown? I have seen LIVE videos of bombs falling down. My relatives LIVE in Israel, and they tell me that bombs are being thrown. Some of my relatives now live in bomb shelters because they're House/Apartment has been blown up. This isn't propoganda, this is ACTUALLY happening. Is this news to you?

Propoganda to the palestinians! They are bombing things because they are fed propoganda. That is what I meant. Do you think the Palestinians know about these people living in shelters? I doubt that it comes in their newspapers. They only sympathize their own people because of the propoganda. In their newspapers, they see Palestinians suffering, not Israelis. They decide to retaliate.

P.S. I hope I am not offending you. It seems as though this is a sensitive issue for you. But, I just want you to know what the Palestinians might be thinking.

[z2z007]

Yakov, I won't bother arguing my point earlier since it would be OT.

Both of you stop shredding each other's posts apart. Next poster who does this will be suspended.

[djharkavy]

z2z007, on Dec 31 2006, 02:46 PM, said:

Yakov, I won't bother arguing my point earlier since it would be OT.

Both of you stop shredding each other's posts apart. Next poster who does this will be suspended.

I still don't understand why you have this policy. I understand trying to avoid people nit-icking on syntax and the like, but do not understand why you object to responding to a post point-by-point.

[katinka]

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 12:40 PM, said:

Why is it that a Jew is questioning whether or not a Jew should have a homeland? Do British people question if they should have Britain? Do Americans truly ever want to give back their land to the Native Americans? Do the Chinese ever question whether or not China is their homeland? Do the Muslims question their homeplace of Mecca? NO, only Jews question whether or not Israel is their homeland.

Although thats not exactly what i'm doing, Yakov, why shouldn't a Jew question whether or not a Jew should have a homeland? There were white people who questioned slavery, christian people who question anti-semitism, men who question sexism, etc. Just because its going against what you percieve to be the correct opinion doesn't mean its wrong. Yakov, you should check out www.jatonyc.org for more on that... in fact, this page on their site just makes me feel more compassion towards the palestinians: http://www.jatonyc.org/eric/earth.html

I disagree with your apartment analogy. While you're on vacation, you still pay rent for that apartment, or own it. Your things still occupy it. There's evidence that you're coming back. If you want to talk apartment analogies, how bout this: Say you're evicted from an apartment. Then someone else occupies it. And then you try to get it back. You can't, because even though you were forced out of it, it now belongs to someone else.

There definitely are two sides to this conflict, which is why its so hard for me to answer when people ask me if i support israel or not.

I realize that this is a sensitive issue for many like Yakov who have family in Israel (which, by the way, i do too). However, its important to realize that not all palestinians are suicide bombers whose only mission is to kill as many israelis as possible. There are people there who just want to live a normal quiet life. What Zaccariah says about propoganda is also probably right-- the palestinian papers probably don't publish about how israelis are being killed, and israeli and american newspapers sure as hell don't make a big deal about how innocent palestinians are suffering.

[Yakov]

They didn't, the UN did. Funny, how you mentioned that specific one.
What he thinks, makes a difference in opinion; thus, making a conflict.

But, you ignored my overall thesis (i.e. there is two sides to the conflict and both sides think they are right. Neither side is more correct than the other).

Because I disagree with it

Propoganda to the palestinians! They are bombing things because they are fed propoganda. That is what I meant. Do you think the Palestinians know about these people living in shelters? I doubt that it comes in their newspapers. They only sympathize their own people because of the propoganda. In their newspapers, they see Palestinians suffering, not Israelis. They decide to retaliate.

Misinterpreted that statement earlier, I totally agree with you on this

P.S. I hope I am not offending you. It seems as though this is a sensitive issue for you. But, I just want you to know what the Palestinians [b]might[/b] be thinking.

Thanks.

Yakov, I won't bother arguing my point earlier since it would be OT.

Both of you stop shredding each other's posts apart.  Next poster who does this will be suspended.

Why can't I shred his posts apart? I'm responding in a mature manner and I feel like I have the right to shred his post. He's ok with it as well, I don't see why you shouldn't be.

Although thats not exactly what i'm doing, Yakov, why shouldn't a [b]Jew[/b] question whether or not a [b]Jew[/b] should have a homeland? There were white people who questioned slavery, christian people who question anti-semitism, men who question sexism, etc. Just because its going against what you percieve to be the correct opinion doesn't mean its wrong. Yakov, you should check out www.jatonyc.org for more on that... in fact, this page on their site just makes me feel more compassion towards the palestinians: [url=http://www.jatonyc.org/eric/earth.html]http://www.jatonyc.org/eric/earth.html[/url]
So what do you propose? Kick all the Jews out? Send them to Africa?;) 

I disagree with your apartment analogy. While you're on vacation, you still pay rent for that apartment, or own it. Your things still occupy it. There's evidence that you're coming back. If you want to talk apartment analogies, how bout this: Say you're evicted from an apartment. Then someone else occupies it. And then you try to get it back. You can't, because even though you were forced out of it, it now belongs to someone else.[/code]
The Jewish settlements were ALWAYS in Palestine. They had their possessions there long before Palestine. There was evidence that they were coming back, because they got KICKED out, we didn't just wake up one day and were like "Hey Israel is boring lets go to China!". No it was more like, "Dam it I got kicked out, and now I'm stuck in China but I want to go back to Israel.

There definitely are two sides to this conflict, which is why its so hard for me to answer when people ask me if i support israel or not.

The bottom line is you have people in Israel who care for you, which is the main reason you should support Israel. If Palestine won the war, there would be hell for your family.

I realize that this is a sensitive issue for many like Yakov who have family in Israel (which, by the way, i do too). However, its important to realize that not all palestinians are suicide bombers whose only mission is to kill as many israelis as possible. There are people there who just want to live a normal quiet life. What Zaccariah says about propoganda is also probably right-- the palestinian papers probably don't publish about how israelis are being killed, and israeli and american newspapers sure as hell don't make a big deal about how innocent palestinians are suffering.

The regular Palestinians actually want to be left alone, while the suicide bombers are the ones that are willing to die to get rid of Israel.

Seeing as this is my last post before my 'suspension', I'd just like to clear up on my views.

1) If tomorrow there was a war between Israel and Palestine, and a truce could NOT be accomplished, and one of them HAD to win, and you decided who won the war, who would you pick? (@Katinka)

2) While most Palestinians are not suicide bombers, the suicide bombers are ruining it for them. If they don't want to be labeled as "those bad people who keep killing Jews" simply get rid of suicide bombers. They were put in place by the people, which clearly means they are ok with this.

3) Yes, being raised in a super "Zionist" family made me be on the Jews side more. But think of it this way, you may care about the Palestinians all you want, but bottom line is that Palestinians aren't feeding you your food, your parents are. You should care about your Jewish family MUCH more than about the Palestinians, because the Palestinians aren't helping you at all, but the Jews are.

EDIT: Not letting me quote anymore? LOL. I can use [code]

[Josh]

Quote

Not letting me quote anymore? LOL. I can use [code]

There's a cap on the number of quotes per post to prevent excessive quoting/unecessary post dissection. So although you can use code, you're missing the point.

[AFaust3]

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 06:24 PM, said:

Why can't I shred his posts apart? I'm responding in a mature manner and I feel like I have the right to shred his post. He's ok with it as well, I don't see why you shouldn't be.
...
EDIT: Not letting me quote anymore? LOL. I can use [code]

ZoSo, on Dec 31 2006, 07:27 PM, said:

There's a cap on the number of quotes per post to prevent excessive quoting/unecessary post dissection. So although you can use code, you're missing the point.

It is also part of the rules on the forums to "not tear apart other users’ posts. This includes quoting others too repeatedly and arguing about technicalities."

Back to topic, I believe that at the time (in 1948), Israel as a Jewish state was appropriate given the massive amount of European refugees following World War II. Given the present situation, calling it a "Jewish state" is inappropriate since, despite its original purpose, it is quite diverse.

Is Israel a legitimate state? Yes. Palestinians have a right to gripe about certain and and freedoms issues, but violence (on both sides for that matter) is mostly unwarranted and driven by blind hatred.

[katinka]

Yakov-- I'm not proposing anything. I was merely responding to your comment on how a jew can question israel. And to clear that one up a bit further-- i believe i've stated that i'm an atheist. being jewish is simply a cultural identity. In fact, its a cutural identity that i've only embraced very recently, this summer, because prior to that i felt alienated by the jewish community (i still feel alienated by that community-- its just i've found other people who feel the same way). Its not something that defines my politics or who i am, but having a jewish cultural identity and that history of persecution just gives me that urge to fight against intolerance.

Also, i aknowledge that there were always jewish settlements in israel. just never was so large scale (israel is 79% jewish), and it was never a 'jewish' state.

As far as there being a "bottom line" because there are people who care about me in israel-- please. you sound like my mother when you say that. I see those people maybe once a year. They don't know me. They know my family, but not me. And if they care for me, its for the wrong reasons. Its silly to care for someone just because you're related to them. You're supposed to care for them because of who they are, not because you have a similar genetic structure.

Yakov, on Dec 31 2006, 06:24 PM, said:

Seeing as this is my last post before my 'suspension', I'd just like to clear up on my views.

1) If tomorrow there was a war between Israel and Palestine, and a truce could NOT be accomplished, and one of them HAD to win, and you decided who won the war, who would you pick? (@Katinka)

2) While most Palestinians are not suicide bombers, the suicide bombers are ruining it for them. If they don't want to be labeled as "those bad people who keep killing Jews" simply get rid of suicide bombers. They were put in place by the people, which clearly means they are ok with this.

3) Yes, being raised in a super "Zionist" family made me be on the Jews side more. But think of it this way, you may care about the Palestinians all you want, but bottom line is that Palestinians aren't feeding you your food, your parents are. You should care about your Jewish family MUCH more than about the Palestinians, because the Palestinians aren't helping you at all, but the Jews are.

EDIT: Not letting me quote anymore? LOL. I can use [code]

1)I'm a pacifist. I would be something of a switzerland in WW2.

2) Following that logic, if jews don't want to be known as the greedy people who have all the money, we should annihilate all the jews that cheat people of their money. Its not as simple as getting rid of suicide bombers. Every culture/religion/nationality has its bad apples. Not all southerners are/were KKK members. Not all priests are child molestors. Not all palestinians want to kill jews.

3) I SHOULDN'T and DON'T care about anyone more because they happen to be jewish. There are so many things i find wrong with what you said. Lets start with the fact that, yes, my family feeds my food. But they aren't all jewish, my stepfather is russian orthodox. Second, i know people who have been disowned by their families, which is why that argument hold little weight to me. Just because two people make up your genetic makeup doesn't mean they care for you. About my "Jewish Family" helping me out-- there are so many rifts within judaism its quite funny. There's reform, reconstructionist, conservative, orthodox, and everywhere in between. This "jewish community" isn't sticking together. They're busy fighting over whether women should wear pants or whether contraception should be used or whether we should have gay rabbis. And just to add a bit of spice-- I've had people from the jewish community where i grew up tell me that i should burn in hell for all eternity for what i believe (and this wasn't one of the times i brought up israel/palestine). So no, i can't say that they care for me too much.


BTW, you screwed up your coding.

[Yakov]

Im going to prevent myself from quoting you


1)Pacifist or not, if you were FORCED to pick who won the war, I guarantee you would pick Israel no questions asked.
2) Jews who "cheat" people do not threaten their own lives nor the lives of the people they "cheat". (Usually). However, suicide bombers ALWAYS threaten their own lives and the lives of the people they bomb. [Usually]
3) Honestly, I was a bit shaken up by some of your beliefs as well . And If I was an "orthodox" Jew then Yes, maybe I'd be cursing at you as well. Also, if you're an Atheist, why do you go to a Rabbi?

[katinka]

1) This is a free country. i can't be forced to pick a side. And i wouldn't be so sure that i'd pick israel.
2)Okay, see comments about priests and KKK.
3)Which beliefs were you shaken up by? And although you are not an "orthodox" jew, the majority of the really observant jews in our community are, and project their beliefs onto the more secular community. The particular incident i'm refering to was not an orthodox jew, but a more secular one from our community. I don't recall stating that i go to a rabbi for worship or religious guidance... However, i do know several rabbis (reform) and i have great respect for them, because aside from being religious leaders they are very educated people and interesting to talk to.